002 - Nathan from Amherst, Massachusetts

Hey Theist! You're more agnostic than you think.

Note: Named Churches and Organizations are generalized in this interview at the guest's request.

Tell me a little about yourself?

Grew up Catholic

8^th grade smoking

Mom sent me to Christian camp because “Christians don’t smoke”

16: atheism, theism, Christianity

Went to jail for partying in the woods, profound jail “Christian experience” described as a Grinch heart growing 3 sizes moment.

Went to work at camp, starting working at the camp, started a Bible study, saw it grow. Started a church in 2008. Started in XYZ SEMINARY. Degreed in Physics. Not young earth. Joined CHURCH FELLOWSHIP ORGANIZATION.

Professors said “this appears to be a contradiction but it’s not.”

Contradictions: Census in Chronicles vs Kings

Started investigating contradictions, problems started getting only bigger and bigger.

Talked to professors in Sept 13 about concerns, was told “who are you to judge the text? Humble yourself to God. Avoid atheism websites.”

Jan 14 – Investigating atheism websites, caused fuller doubts. Tried liberal Christianity but that was worse “just picking and choose what you want to believe.” Then “came out” to elders and wife about belief, mutual decision to leave pastorate at XYZ CHURCH (since Sept 2008).

                What does your wife think about this? Kinda tricky. Not reformed. Attending a more liberal church. Try to be civil. Used to be hardcore reformed. Kids still pray, go to church. Doesn’t force atheism down kids throats or try to deconvert them. He just isn’t with her at church.

                Causing problems between him and wife? Did at first because I was trying to deconvert her, but now less aggressive.

                What did the CHURCH FELLOWSHIP ORGANIZATION do? Initially very supportive. “Let’s coach you though this.”

Do you consider yourself an atheist or agnostic?

Agnostic. If there is a natural explanation, there is no need for the supernatural. Dawkins take it too far though. I will continue to amass knowledge and change my mind if I need to. Rational Skeptic. One of my struggles is defining what I am. Everyone wants to put you in a labelled box.

When did you become an atheist/agnostic?

Jan/Feb 2014 Carl Sagan’s Demon Haunting World was a big influence

Seminary Professors told me not to tell my church elders because “everyone has doubts, you’ll come out on the other side.” Told him to pray, read the Bible.

Do you consider yourself a former Christian or other religion?

Yes – a former Christian. Believed I had a salvation experience. Believed I had a relationship with Jesus.

I’ve cast out demons here. I can’t delete that from my past. Had to come to terms with that.     

                How did you feel when you had doubts? Terrified, scared, worried, was told it was worse to walk away then to never have believed. Wife told me she heard God say, “will you leave me too?” in February, told me, burst in tears. When I finally decided to do this, was terribly saddened the first week. Things in Christianity I still miss.

Why do you not believe in God?

Doctrine of inerrancy crumbled when I looked into it. Then could I trust ANY of the Bible at that point? Liberal Christians just choose what they want. “Holy Spirit leading us” didn’t make sense with all the denominations out there. Talked to others who’ve deconverted, and the #1 cause was doubt of the doctrine of Inerrancy.

What would you say to God-believers out there?

To theists/deists – whatever! You’re more agnostic than you think.

All major world faiths have enough contradictions within themselves.

Christian God – show problems with “God is good” and “God doesn’t change.”

Are you mad at God?

No. Really sad actually. Why didn’t God answer my prayers? When you don’t believe in Him, it’s hard to be mad at him. Church planting is now just life experience. Not mad that I planted a church, in fact now I wish I didn’t.

Do you hate the Christian God at all?

No. I see the detriment that religion does to people and don’t think the good outweighs it. I would prefer religious organizations not have the power and pull over people that they do.

Should I stop believing in God, or stay the way I am?

If you asked, I would say yes, stop believing in God. But I’m not “evangelistic” about atheism. Post “provocative” Facebook articles, but it’s more to get people to think. Religion has done more bad than good to humanity. Do you think religious people don’t think? No, people think, but people compartmentalize. When a problem comes up with our beliefs, we would have to make a drastic change, therefore we ignore it or compartmentalize it. Example: Numbers 31 vs. “God is good.”

Answers: “I don’t know but I’ll trust God.” This is not a good answer. Why? Well, can you trust Him? Also that answer is used to ignore the problem more than trusting God.

Have you or do you currently read the Bible or any religious books?

Just finished a book from a Vineyard church planter. Answering questions from different church belief systems (Catholic/Reformed). Apologetic type.

Have you ever heard of “presuppositional apologetics”?

Yes. Used to do them quite a bit. Training from XYZ CHURCH IN WASHINGTON.

I’d like to read you a Bible passage. Is that ok? Romans 1: 18-21 – Do you agree or disagree with that?

Those verses have more to do with salvation history. IE over time people became idolatrous.

Breaking the Spell by Dennett – why naturalistically people who believe in God last better than those who don’t, therefore it is passed on as a trick of survival. First 2 chapters are “heavy-handed” against religion but after that he calms down. People who do that constantly only polarize their opponents.

Example: Hear rustling in the leaves, jump thinking it’s a lion. You’re wrong, no lion. But you survive longer than person who hears rustling in the leaves, doesn’t jump, and gets eaten by a lion.

Is there anything in the Bible you strongly disagree with?

Yes. Lot of OT laws- read with skeptics’ eye, are completely barbaric and inhumane.  NT never condemns slavery. Doctrine of Hell.

Do you ever debate religion/existence of God with anybody?

Yeah all the time, but other people initiate most of the time.

Have Christians ever tried talking to you about becoming a Christian?

Yes. A lot at first, it has tapered off over time because they haven’t had fruit.

                Do people think you aren’t a Christian or that you are just backslidden?

                Most would say I’m not a Christian. Reformed/CHURCH FELLOWSHIP ORGANIZATION guys have a real problem with it because I’ve coached them on how to plant a church, seen me preach, etc.

Are you open to the existence of a God?

Sure! Why not?

If you discovered that Christianity was true, would you believe it and become a Christian?

Yes, it would be irrational not to?

If the only way I know Christianity is true is by what is written of it, then if what is written about it is found to be not true, then I would have to assume Christianity is also true.

Feedback: don’t be a hater against agnostics. Agnostics consider themselves to be empty slates. They do have a consistent worldview. All agnostics don’t not believe in God because they don’t want to, some just feel they haven’t seen the evidence for it yet.